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In this thought-provoking podcast episode, hosts Cintya Beltran Sanchez, Jessica Osanyinpeju, Wonder Edem, and Dr. Moazzum Bajwa, under the adept production of Dr. Ann Cheney and Dr. Manasi Rajadhyaksha and expertly edited by Diya Anantharaman, engage in a compelling discussion on the heightened scrutiny faced by people of color in medical school and residency, with a particular focus on its impact on mental health. Through a blend of personal experiences and expert insights, the hosts skillfully navigate the systemic challenges within the medical education system, shedding light on the disparities faced by aspiring medical professionals from diverse backgrounds. This episode not only raises awareness about these issues but also serves as a platform for dialogue on potential solutions, encouraging listeners to reflect on the broader implications and contribute to fostering a more inclusive and supportive medical community.

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About the hosts:

• Cintya Beltran Sanchez- Cintya Beltran Sanchez immigrated from Jalisco, Mexico when she was twelve years old. She grew up in the Coachella Valley where she attended community college, and then transferred to University of California, San Diego. She currently is a fourth year medical student at the University of California, Riverside School of Medicine.
• Jessica Osanyinpeju – Jessica is a second-year medical student at UCR School of Medicine interested in psychiatry. She obtained her associates degree in Math and Science from Riverside City College and then her Bachelor’s degree in biology from UCLA. Jessica is from Corona, California.
• Wonder Edem – Wonder Utibe Daniel Edem-Ineama is a 4th year medical student at University of California, Riverside School of Medicine. She completed her Bachelor’s of Science at University of California, Los Angeles in Anthropology with a focus in Sociocultural Anthropology. Wonder has a passion for understanding the impact of diversity, equity and inclusion in medical education and the practice of medicine. She enjoys cooking, nature, and spending time with her family.
• Dr. Moazzum Bajwa– Dr. Bajwa is a proud family physician at Riverside University Health System and assistant professor at UC Riverside School Of Medicine. His career has focused on increasing health equity through serving patients, teaching, and creating a variety of educational and community initiatives.

Listen to the podcast on Spotify: https://spotifyanchor-web.app.link/e/KScpnMKh9Fb

Transcript:

Speaker 1 0:19
This podcast was recorded on August 22nd by Cintya Beltran Sanchez, Jessica Osanyinpeju (she/her), Wonder Edem and Dr. Moazzum Bajwa. The podcast was produced by Dr. Ann Cheney (she/her), and Dr. Manasi Rajadhyaksha (she/her), and was edited by Diya Anantharaman (they/that). This podcast is part of the podcast series created for the engaging the academy project, a capacity building project led by Dr. Evelyn Vazquez of the School of Medicine at the University of California, Riverside.

Cintya Beltran Sanchez 0:20
We at UCR would like to respectfully acknowledge and recognize our responsibility to the original anchor and caretakers of this land, water and air, the Cahuilla Tonga, Louiseño peoples and all of their ancestors and descendants past, present, and future. Today. This meeting place is home to many indigenous peoples from all over the world, including UCSF faculty, students, and staff. We are grateful to have the opportunity to live and work in these homelands.

Dr. Moazzum Bajwa 1:35
All righty, well, thank you guys so much for having me as part of your podcasts, I’m really honored to be here. And this is a topic that I think is really important, not just for our institution, but in medical education generally. So one of the things that we wanted to focus on today was within medical education, the the opportunities and issues that historically marginalized doctors in training deal with and how we can perhaps confront some of those topics. So we’re lucky to have some doctors in training on the discussion this evening, who are willing to share and talk bravely about their experiences. And so we’re gonna jump right in. And I’m gonna invite our three speakers. So Cintya, Wonder and Jessica to talk about their experiences applying and sort of getting into medical school and the start of their journeys, as doctors and training and some of the issues that came up as part of that process.

Cintya Beltran Sanchez 2:36
Thank you, Dr. Bajwa for being here, I can go ahead and start and share a little bit of my experience in the like getting into med school, I feel like since like historically, marginalized communities, we have to like, work hard to like gain mentors and like, find a way find on our own how to apply to med school, like, I didn’t know that you had to take an MCAT until I graduated from undergrad, and then I had to figure out what this was and how to get prepared for it. And then I feel like for me to get to the interviewing process, and you feel like you’re a researcher, like, like a, like a big, like a big moment to like, get to interview at some places. And then, like, for me, my first interview, I was really excited. And like, I’m part of the LGBTQ community, I’m also an immigrant. And um, there was a time that I was undocumented. And like, the first thing that my interviewer says is, oh, you’re Cintya, you’re wearing a tie. And I was just kind of like, okay, yeah. And then the interview was like a crossfire interview. And I feel like, you already feel like, you don’t belong. I like this interview sometimes. And like, how did you even get this interview? And, and then it’s even worse when the interviewer starts being like, what was your GPA? Or why did you go to community college? As if that’s a bad thing. So it definitely is not really very nice to be sitting in an interview and like, trying to defend yourself and like, prove that, like you’re good enough to be sitting in this interview.

Jessica 4:32
Yeah. Cintya, I really resonated with what you said about, you know, feeling that scrutiny coming from a community college. And, you know, talking a little bit more about my own process into applying to medical school. Like what you said about the MCAT as well that like, by the time I transferred to that where you’re in college, I didn’t I didn’t realize Is that I would have had to study and take the MCAT. And that same year that I got to the new school. And that’s just if I wanted to be a traditional student, which was, you know, which everybody kind of wants to be that, but is it feasible? You know, so I ended up not doing that and taking a gap year. And, and, yeah, I mean, the application process also brings to light, you know, things that you want to consider, like, is this the career for me, because I had medical, a medical student tell me that there’s some there are certain things you want to put on your application, certain like words or phrases that you don’t want to say that maybe appear to like to get that give away your background too much. Like, don’t really talk so in detail about the experience of being black, which I am myself, or, you know, with other units are being female, because they say that the people that are reading applications are going to be old white males. So I can remember that the students saying that, and it makes you you know, think a little bit more about, you know, where you’re trying to go to.

Wonder Edem 6:31
Thank you, Jessica, and Cintya, for sharing your experiences, it’s definitely really tough thinking back about how things were difficult. And, you know, people also, you know, commenting on your identity, and where you went to school, because, you know, ultimately, you ended up here, right? So did all that stuff really matter anyways, it’s just making things more stressful. Who knows, right? I feel like I kind of did a little bit of everything. Because, you know, I went into undergrad like knowing I wanted to go to medical school. But I didn’t really know what it took to do well on those courses. And I didn’t really have the mentorship that I felt like I needed or I felt supported as a student and as a black female student in the institution I was at. So it was kind of challenging for me. And ultimately, I just wanted to be happy. So I changed my major to anthropology because I was like, I care about people and communities. And I think this will help me be a better doctor. So I figured out that that was the route I was going to take and my approach and understanding the world. But I also needed classes. So I did a postback. But it was like super short. And I also went to community college and took classes there after my Postback. So I had a lot of classes to take, and I had to take the MCAT. So there were like a couple of gap years in between undergrad and getting into medical school. And even just the process of like funding the postback. college or community college for sure, like wasn’t as expensive, but like, for some people taking six months off, to take their MCAT like me, or taking a year or two off to fund your own Postback may not be realistic, may not be realistic if you have to support yourself. So I think there’s also privilege and knowing that I had someone to stay with when I was doing all of that. Or just like having a finance and myself by taking out private loans. So I could, you know, I guess bet on myself and hoping that I would get into medical school. So I do feel like financially and emotionally it can be kind of a dream process. When it comes to your point, Jessica about identity. I feel like I was so tired at that point that I was like, I’d much rather stay true to myself and say I am a Nigerian woman in America, and like, this is my experience, and whatever school I got into, I would want them to want to know my story because ultimately, that’s the place that would support me the best to be the doctor that I want to be. So I think there’s a certain level of, like, staying true to yourself. That maybe not some people may not feel comfortable with, but I feel like I knew this was gonna be a long journey, and I just wanted to have that to be my truth. So I wouldn’t be in here pretending or having to hide who I am to make other people uncomfortable. Because other than a day like we’re serving so many different types of people, and you know, we have to be able to be okay with getting to know people and where they come from and accepting them.

Dr. Moazzum Bajwa 10:05
I think it’s really impressive how well the three of you are able to articulate these points that are so deeply personal. But also, as you’ve been talking universal across each of your experiences, that’s something that when, I was a student, I certainly didn’t have a solid grasp of, so I’m just really impressed and your responses and how well you’re able to articulate those points. Because these are difficult things to talk about. Even as you guys were talking, I was sort of jotting down notes about some of the themes that not only resonated with me, but that were cutting across all of your responses. And I wrote down the lack of guidance and mentorship as one of the primary common themes. And what does that mean? What if it’s for those of us who don’t know what it’s like to apply to medical school or even to be a physician? How can you possibly set yourself on the course for success? And how does that stack up against people who have that privilege? Another thing I wrote down was, how so much of the areas of pride that you held around the hardships that you overcame, and the difficulties you’re surrounded, became stigmatized at some point in the process, and almost became points of shame, even as specific as during Cintya’s discussion of her interview process, like I mean, when we talk about the invulnerability that permeates throughout medical education, and you hear stories like that, and it kind of makes sense, this is why the system is the way it is. And then the last piece that I think Winder spoke about so beautifully was identity portion. What does it mean? When you want to stay true to yourself, but you kind of have to play your game and pretend in different ways to meet these rigid structures and standards that are in place. And that can be in itself very distressing and cause a lot of feelings of isolation, which only perpetuate. And we haven’t even talked about what happens once you’re in medical school. And so I wanted to leave a little bit of space, if anybody else had any, any sort of final thoughts about that application portion? Because I think there’s, I mean, there’s so much there, before we move into talking about once you’re in medical school. And one thing I’ll ask of each other, and as well as for our listeners is, as you’re hearing these conversations and likely thinking of solutions to these barriers, it is always important to ask yourself, are the solutions I’m coming up with putting more pressure on the individual? Or are they truly systemic, and things that can move towards justice, which is breaking down barriers as opposed to helping each other overcome, both things are important. We don’t want to forsake one or the other. But our natural tendency, at least my natural tendency is to default to the individual ones. What can I do to overcome these systemic barriers, which in itself leads to worsening. depersonalization and detachment are the things that get bundled under corporate words like burnout? So I’m interested to see what are the compensation goes as we start moving into the next part, which is, we’ve talked about digital qualities with applying to medical school and some of the biases inherent in that process. Now, checkmark biggest accomplishment of our lives, congratulations, families, you know, cheering for us. Yay, we got into medical school, like, oh my gosh, how many 1% of 1% of people like this is, this is it, we are saying we are good, you know, everything’s, everything’s just, you know, all the issues we say it’s the way everything is melt away. As soon as we set foot on campus, talk to me a little bit about if you’re okay, your experiences once you once you got to medical school.

Cintya Beltran Sanchez 13:52
I can talk a little bit of our of experience. I feel like once I got into med school, I kind of just wanted to focus on, the positives and, not really allowed anyone to like make me feel like the island deserves to be here. And in a way like that, in a way like clouded me, I guess to see what like bias were being placed on like my identity and everything. Like I remember we preparing for this podcast, we were talking about assessment bias and like, I was like, Oh, I don’t think like anyone has done like assessment bias for me, you know? And then, like a couple of weeks later, I met with someone in medical education yes to talk about my my assessments throughout my evaluations throughout medical school and things like that. And I realized that, because I didn’t know what assessment bias was I wasn’t really paying attention. But I was talking with people that have been in medical education for like years, they expressed that they have noticed that people when people of color are in medical education, no one really comments on their, on their knowledge that they have in medicine. Like for example, like if you have like a white medical student like in they of course know like what a certain thing is in medicine. I think you will see undervaluation all these persons very smart, like they know what they’re talking about, like, above, this is above their their year what they are expected to know. But if you’re like a person of color, like evaluators won’t really talk about your, your knowledge and how and how well you know, like medicine. And I didn’t I happen to like score well, like most of my shelves. However, what we’re looking at evaluations, this person brought up the fact that no one really talk like, they talked about how compassionate I was, and how caring I was, but no one like said, like, hey, like maybe one person but you will table like more than 10 different opposition’s and no one really expresses when no one really talked about the knowledge of the medical student, if they are new, they’re a person of color.

Jessica 16:20
Thank you, Cintya, the biases you listed, you know, those really had me thinking, like, maybe I have a certain, like not, I haven’t gone through clinical rotations or anything like that. So I didn’t think that I might have expe-, I don’t think I’ve really experienced this assessment bias, but I might already have a fear of it because I’m thinking of my experience, at least even this second year of medical school, that we’re just starting. And we began to have a lot of active learning sessions where we’re all like, sharing and going around. Well, but they’ll randomly call on students and things, and I was called on randomly, like, the first week of school, and, you know, we’re learning immunology, and it’s a little bit, you know, rough a little bit, at least for me, I mean, she is not my, you know, my best thing. So when she calls on me, like, first of all, I just knew she was going I was dreading it. And, and when she did, I was like, Oh my gosh, and my heart was beating and pitter at it, and it wasn’t really even about the public speaking aspect, like I was on Zoom. And I start saying the answers, whatever, and she starts questioning, like, kind of my knowledge of the material. And I messed up all but I didn’t know some of those things. and after that zoom session, I felt pretty bad because, you know, I’m thinking to myself, that, you know, I’m one of the, you know, black girls in the class and like, that was my opportunity to shine. And maybe I didn’t, you know, use that opportunity. You know what I mean? Like? And that’s something that I that I felt like, I’m like, how am I going to come back from this, like, the other students saw me mess up on the thing, and I’m laughing but like, it wasn’t a fun experience. Like the feeling like you’re representing a group?

Wonder Edem 18:49
Oh, man. The pressure is a lot. The pressure is just too much. But I hear you, I hear you, Cintya. I hear you, Jessica.

Yeah, I mean, I think evaluations, you know, how different genders are treated inclusion. Being a person of color, there’s just like, so many layers to the conversation of how someone can be scrutinized or treated differently, or just feeling like, unnecessarily nervous because you’re like the one or one of the few and everyone’s like, looking at GDC Oh, what’s that person gonna do, right? I think at some point, I always kind of come back to this idea of like, well, they had to learn it too, right? So like, do I really have to feel extra pressure for alert like having the same slide book of the other person? Like we have the same amount of time to learn it, right? So, maybe I should give myself a little bit more grace, or as I’m just gonna, like, be stressed every time I go to class, because that was what was happening at some point. I also like had someone in the school like talk to me as a block person kind of thing, similar thing along the lines of, you know, you have to be like this, because people are watching you and this than the other. And I was really upset. Like, I think for some people, that would be inspiring. But for me, I was just like, I’m not taking that on, like, I have way too many things to worry about. until like, I didn’t sign up to be the one person who was the representative for the entire race. Like, I’m not doing that because, I’m just wonder I can’t, you know, so I was, after that I was like, I understand where that person was coming from, and I think that’s definitely, a mindset that people use to get them through tough times. But I know for me, like, I think a lot about things so I was just like, I don’t want to take that on personally, because I don’t think it’s fair for me to have that conversation but the person sitting next to me because their skin is lighter, they don’t have to have that conversation, so they can like have the freedom to live the life however they want to without the pressure of representing the whole, you know, Euro American community.

Dr. Moazzum Bajwa 21:30
This is really powerful testimony each of us shared and I just want to thank you so much for taking time. I’ve learned just by listening to your lived experiences so much about my own privilege, and the ways that and shield, the mean, and a lot of ways from some of these stigmatizing harms, that are endemic to medical education, and as I’ve been taking notes, and reflecting on your comments, it’s really the same ideas from what we were discussing in the first segment about application hold true here, which is, each of you feeling in some way, your identity that you were so proud of, and that got you here has to be modulated or changed or sometimes hidden, for fear that not only coming across the wrong way, but maybe even affecting your grade on a course or rotation if you’re graded on professionalism, but so many of the assessments around professionals and are steeped in racist stereotypes, and that already set you up an editor’s advantage. And that’s just one example of many that you gave that talk about having to really change part of who you are to fit into a culture that is not necessarily create safe space for you, and how just toxic of an environment that creates. And this is an example of the larger issue, which is we focus so much on pathways and development programs to recruit black indigenous people of color into any underrepresented groups into medicine, but then failed to uphold those in beautiful aspects of their lives once they enter medicine, and that’s what we’re supposed to be doing when we talk about helping our communities and helping make sure that we have concordance between the physicians who are doing identify with the physician, the people that are taking care of, and this really falls short in the examples that you’re getting, which is heartbreaking to hear but important, I think to discuss at this level, and I really appreciate you Jean, feeling comfortable sharing. One of the issues when we’re talking about assessment bias that comes up is this issue that each of you touched on a little bit, which was the difference of confidence and competence, and there’s a really brilliant paper that was written, I think last end of last year that I saw in the Journal of American Medical Association by three physicians from University of Chicago doctors, Aurora and Carta and Babcock about this issue of the urgent need to revisit the bias around assessment. And they raised several great points, but one of them was about competency bias, and this is something I’ve discussed within my faculty group that program, the residency program, where I work, and how so much of our assessment in medical education is based on confidence, as opposed to competence, or rather, perceived competence of the learner, by the faculty who’s doing the assessment, and that they explore that through the lens of gendered stereotypes and how a male or a female presenting with the same case and the same issue similar to what Cintya presented may be perceived differently, and given higher marks because of their perceptions of competence, which actually has nothing to do with their competence, and they go even further in that paper to discuss how rewarding confidence instead of competence, it actually leads to harm for our patients because it backfires, and the learner will then be less likely to ask for help when they need it, because that is goes against this idea of promoting confidence in their work, and this is something that was hinted at in each of your responses, and I wanted to just take a moment to recognize that because it is, in my opinion, one of the greatest harms that we perpetuate in the medical education system is that inability to ask for help that sort of toxic invulnerability that really permeates these paternalistic structures and leads to so many of these problems in the first place, and I’m would be remiss if I didn’t acknowledge that article that I mentioned, did highlight from the one from JAMA, and it highlights some really good systemic solutions, and one of which was having a discussion at the level of the clinical competency committee. So each residency program has to have a clinical competency committee that is responsible for assessing the progress clinically of their residents each year, and so making sure those faculty are not just aware, but educated on these issues of assessment bias and competency bias is one of the solutions that they pose. So thinking, in that same vein, as we moved to our last segment, what sort of, you know, put the pressure on you to come up with solutions to these systemic issues, but what sort of things would you envision could be done differently, or better, based on your experiences, as current doctors and trainings that you’d want to see changed? Perhaps when it’s your turn, it’s faculty, or in the future?

Jessica 26:37
I think, from the institution level, one thing that I feel like I would benefit from it may be, I don’t know if wondering Cintya with as well. But I would really like to see institutions, medical schools, go out of their way to create, like physical spaces, where students from all backgrounds can, you know, discuss their experiences or challenges and concerns. You guys might be familiar with things like black Resource Center, or like, you know, Veterans Resource Center, like things like that, that we had an undergrad, I think it would be so beneficial to see that in medical schools where you can just, you know, go to the space, and you may be able to talk with other students that maybe are from the same culture as you like, you know, basically there’s this idea of, like, third space, where people going, like, create their communities, create their communities, but within a medical school, I think this like, least safe spaces could serve as and these, you know, resource centers for, like, we’re cross cultural understanding and things, I think that you can also host like cultural events and like activities and organize workshops. You know, just promote appreciation for the diversity of your students. And yeah, and at the same time, provide support, like input, maybe in person tutoring, and also give students like those mental health resources, you know, in person or even, you know, given that medical school is require so much and like, does even fight like financially, maybe, you know, have those types of like food pantries and stuff like that, like on campus, like for students to be able to get things for, you know, for home and like, just like, little snacks and stuff like that there are things that they can cook at home. Just so you know, you acknowledge that students might be coming from different financial situations and might also require support in that way.

Cintya Beltran Sanchez 29:32
Yeah, I agree with Jessica. I feel like a way that medical student medical schools can like become better or like not having bias or by like, you know, people of color immigrants or like LGBTQ community is like, I feel like right now, like people have to take workshops to learn about, like, I don’t know, like transgender health and things like that. But then when you know, let’s be honest, when we look at a workshop, like we don’t really pay like full attention to the whole video, like, We’re all just trying to get the way because it’s something that we have to get done in our education or like us in the US as a doctor, like as a student doctor. So I feel like, you know, you do so much work to get students, people of color into medical school from different backgrounds, but then like, you bring us into medical school. And, and then, like, you kind of forget about us, you know, we’re here and like, it’s like, sometimes it’s so hard to talk to people from like, the higher level.

Wonder Edem 30:37
I really like all of those ideas, and I think it’s good to connect the different levels in the system together, as we’re all kind of understanding each other. Having another idea, I had a plan. I was a resident advisor, my university and like, the first few weeks was all like bonding for students. And we’re going to school is pretty diverse, a little bit of everything. But also, it was still like, predominantly white institutions where we did our best. But I feel like I saw a lot more connection when we had like these, like circle groups, or like everyone just come into a room, do like a little quick introduction, and then do like, okay, here’s a fun fact, or here’s, like, I don’t know, a personal story, or and then we were like, start having, like deeper conversations about like, this is how I grew up, or this was my life, and, you know, those sorts of things. And yeah, I mean, that was like in college, but I also kind of felt like, it opened the door up for other people to get a better view of others experiences, and that way, it wasn’t necessarily like, we’re gonna talk about one specific culture at a time, but we’re gonna talk about everyone’s different experiences within their culture, within their identity, within their gender, and then everyone got to essentially like, empathize with a different person, whoever we were listening to at the time. And I think those conversations, like opened up doors for those people to make friends with each other because of like, oh, like, I I’m not from North Carolina, but I had a similar experience, like, maybe we should be friends, and maybe if you didn’t end up being friends with anybody, you’re like, well, you know what, maybe I’m not like, gonna be friends with yo, but at least now I get it, like, my world is bigger than just my world, and it’s just like a starting point for some people. And I felt like, I felt like having those spaces and like really trying to get people to like, break down their walls, or like, not really have so many walls helped people to be able to feel that more vulnerable, and it was easier to make friends that way. And then I think another thing, another reason why I liked that idea is because it invites like non marginalized communities into conversation, because I kind of think of it in a couple of ways is like, I want to, you know, make sure they’re historically marginalized communities get, you know, special attention and in ways that like, admin, are the faculty, you know, okay, how can we support them better? What are we? What can we improve? On? What are we doing well, right, to make sure that like, we’re helping with retention and making people feel comfortable in the learning process. At the same time, I also feel like if there’s always focus on those groups than the groups who also need to be educated or need to be better integrated into the real world, kind of get separated from that unless they themselves, like, had a sibling who was like that, or had a best friend who was like that, or grew up in an area that had those people, they’re not going to be in those conversations. And I feel like for the most part, not all the time, but for the most part, those are the people that the historically marginalized community they’re having conflict with, right? The ones who aren’t educated or aren’t as culturally sensitive versus the ones who like, have experiences that they know they have to be, you know, moving through the world differently. So I feel like I kind of want to approach changes and just having more like communication with with both sides. I don’t want to call it sides but with with more groups so that the people who aren’t in those conversations can just understand other people’s experiences better, and like could be like from cookouts or potluck or movie nights are like really casual things that isn’t like a seminar or like a module or like we’re gonna have a talk.

Dr. Moazzum Bajwa 35:11
I’m absolutely loving this conversation, because this, I kind of wish I would have started with that question at the beginning, because it’s so uplifting hearing, not just the solutions you’re posing, but how much they’re geared around these concepts of building community, because that’s something I believe in very deeply when I talk to him about my clinical work, my research work, social medicine work, that it seems right to lump that all under one category, that is really what we’re talking about when Cintya was talking about creating safe spaces, brave spaces, as a place to not just acknowledge, but celebrate the beauty in the diversity that each of you bring to the table, I think is so valuable. And even something that was recognized in that paper that I mentioned, creating what they refer to as brave spaces in academic medicine, where not just the learners, but the faculty and administration acknowledge that, yes, we do have inherent biases, and we can identify and work on those, but here are the things that my identity brings to the table that I think are beautiful. And when I’m talking about community, I’m talking about really the shared value system that, for example, that brought each of us to this conversation tonight, even though we had different lived experiences and backgrounds because we have a common goal in mind, and not just as allies where we’re seeing it verbally or performative but as partners, right, we know that we can celebrate our identities as different but equally valuable, and I think that’s what when we’re talking about inclusion, each of us is searching for in some way, and when I think back about your responses to the first two segments, it was a lack of that that really was distressing and isolating for each of you, and you spoke about that so eloquently. There, you bring that together with these concepts around what true inclusion and support looks like as opposed to that more performative allyship is really impressive. Each of you highlighted the benefits of active listening and actually showing up and showing that you care, not just because it’s a box to check, but because part of you actually, you know, use thrown out to bring these people into your community, but what are we doing to support them? Once they’re here? Yeah, this is I mean, just very, very eye opening. I think one of the other things that I do want to highlight is maybe some places if it’s okay, where I think this is being done well, currently from my perspective, some of the things that we’re talking about my gift, I want to give a shout out to my residency program, and Riverside University Health System, Family Medicine, because I mean, you want to talk about walking the walk my faculty group, they really understand this work, and they, over the last six years that I’ve been working with them, I mean, each one of them brings a perspective of their lived experiences and diverse backgrounds, so that they make it a point not just to recruit folks who share diverse backgrounds, similar to the communities that we serve, but also focusing on we can use those same qualities to benefit our clinic group, our clinic function and our patient care, because that’s what’s most important to our patients in our communities, and so we have to respect them and making sure that’s what’s most important, not just in our application process, but in our curriculum. And I do want to make a point that each of us in our in our respective worlds has ideas around organizations or structures that do this work pretty well. So for example, in family medicine, the Society of teachers or family medicine, has an underrepresented in Medicine Initiative, which focuses specifically on finding people along the continuum from medical students to faculty, and supporting them in this work with financial resources, administrative time and connecting mentorships nationwide. And so they exist, it’s just a matter of how do we take that from having to, luckily ran into somebody who knows about that, versus creating it as the understanding for for everyone in the system at large, which is a challenge but I am so grateful to each of you for sharing your creative solutions, I kind of put you on the spot to fix our healthcare system, but that’s what this podcast is about and I think I think we’re going to do some really good work. So, thank you guys, for taking time to share, for sharing with vulnerability and with respect, and you’re really starting these critically important conversations around how we can all do better and work towards that health justice mentality of community that we’re all looking for. Thank you again for participating in our conversation tonight.

Cintya Beltran Sanchez 39:32
Yeah, thank you everyone for sharing your experiences, I know these are these are very personal and it takes a little bit to like not see them seeing them out to the public but as for like the people that are listening to these podcasts, if you’re like a person of color, and you’re struggling like we see you and we’re here for you and you know just just keep pushing and that all your hard work will pay off and you do deserve to be in this community, regardless of what over anybody else thinks. And there are resources out there to help, like, I want to throw in a plug for if you’re on a documented immigrant or documented, there’s like pre help dreamers that really helps these communities, and you can always google them and reach out to them and they’re always there for you.

Jessica 40:27
Yeah, again, thank you, everyone. And, you know, for anyone listening, I hope that maybe you found community in this podcast. And yeah, I’m excited to see what each of us will go on to do after.

Wonder Edem 40:46
Okay, I want to plug to, I want to plug the Student National Medical Association. I want to plug the Association of Black Women Physicians. And I think there’s only two I can remember at the time right now, but yeah, they’re really good organizations. SMNA is like National that a WP is like in Sao Paulo. So if you’re in SoCal, come to LA to come back to her birthday.

Cintya Beltran Sanchez 41:16
Yeah, also Latino Medical Student Association, Sammy mentor, for the Latinos, Hispanics out there. I know sometimes, you know, it also does take money to make it to conferences, you know, like traveling to other places and registration or sometimes just organizations also have a Zoom meetings and it’s like a great place to network and find mentors.

Jessica 41:44
Also shout out to the Center for Community College partnerships at UCLA. If you’re a community college student anywhere in California, I highly recommend looking them up.

Dr. Moazzum Bajwa 41:58
And if none of these shutdowns work, and you still need somebody to pay for your trip to do these conferences, hit me up and I’ll pay for your conference. So, thank you guys so much for taking your time. I just want to close with a quote that I always end his conversations with from the late performers and medical anthropologist who said that is the idea that some lives matter less that is the root of everything. That’s wrong. So, thank you guys for making me believe that are people working to counter that make themself feel valued and loved in our communities. Have a great evening.

Unknown Speaker 42:58
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Transcribed by https://otter.ai